Folks... What you are about to read is a real live word-for-word conversation I had with Amos via instant messenger. I copied this conversation and am pasting it here. The only changes have been spelling errors on both our parts and obvious grammatical errors.
Psych Majors... Enjoy.
HIM: I love you every day...including Monday. I hope you know that. And I hope you know it every day...
ME: Including Monday? Did we fight monday? I know you love me
HIM: This coming monday is the 14th
ME: Ah. Yes I know you love me. And I know Valentine's is against your religion.
HIM: I am going to love you equally that day as I do every day, which is the maximum. I want zero negative feelings. Only positive..like every other day in the year. Are we down with that? or...am I just going to get in trouble for something else or...I'm trying to get a barometer on your feelings. I am not just..telling you how it is. I'm trying to communicate and confer and make everything comfortable
ME: You know how I feel about valentines and I know how you feel about it. It's not new. While I doubt I will be overly happy on Valentines Day, I'm not going to yell at you if thats what you mean.
HIM: Its not about...yelling AT me..its about how you feel inside
ME: You know how I feel though so when you ask "are we down with that" what am I supposed to say?
" Yeah I'm totally cool w/ everything"? For the last 6 years I've tried to enjoy valentines day WITH you and it just hasn't worked so wether you want to admit it or not you're kinda forcing my hand. I'm not being ugly about it. I'm just saying what it is and Monday will happen and there will be romantic stories all over the place. I'll just turn off the internet and in 24 hours it will be Tuesday and then it will be over.
HIM: It will be a positive great day..just like Tuesday and Sunday and every other day. Thats how I see it.
ME: K. Here's the thing about girls.... They go through their whole adolescent and adult life looking for "the one" and until they find him then Valentines is sooooo depressing. They look forward to the day when they can openly share the day in the year set aside for romance with that special guy who will celebrate with them and you can each spend some time to make the other feel special. There is ZERO of that with us. This isn't new It's not new feelings . I didn't bring valentines up because I know how you feel about it. And if you're just going to bring it up to tell me , yet again, how you feel about it... what's the point in bringing it up? Just to remind me that Monday is gonna be weird?
HIM: My hope was to make it not weird by discussing it ahead of time. If I said nothing...it feels like there would be expectations. And...the point is...that I love you every day and try to make every day special. Every day is valentines day. Every day is maximum. You are special to me every day. Why only have special one day?
ME: Okay. Don't worry. I had and have no expectations.
HIM: Thats good right?
ME: It's a cop out. The thought is nice but it's a cop out. We don't need to have this conversation. It's not going to make you happy.
HIM: I'm happy. I refuse to be anything but happy. I want you to be happy too.
ME: Okay. I really wish you hadn't brought that up. Now it's all I'm thinking about and I'm hurt and mad.
HIM: I'm sorry. Not my intention.
ME: Why would you do that other than to just ensure that there were no expectations and to squash that thought right off the bat?
HIM: I wanted you to be happy and feel loved.
ME: By telling me you refuse to celebrate a holiday that I enjoy?!?! Yeah I'm feeling the love.
HIM: I wanted to say something ahead of time rather than say nothing...and then have this crushing thing happen on Monday.
ME: WHY would I expect ANYTHING on Monday other than the same exact big fat nothing that's happened every other year? All you did was rub me raw and hurt me . You say you care about my feelings on the subject but you care about them only as far as they don't interfere with your own.
HIM: I disagree with that.
ME: It's certainly what your actions are saying.
HIM: What actions have spoken to you to tell you that I only care about your feelings only as long as they don't interfere with my own?
ME: Valentines day for the past six years. I suppose it's the lack of actions that confirms it.
HIM: Every choice I make revolves around you. And I'm happy that it does. I love you. I wouldn't have it any other way.
ME: So you express it by making sure I have no special expectations on Monday? Let me make this clear.... I have ZERO expectations. I have never had any expections. You have made it perfectly clear to me that Valentines Day is a coorporate rip off and those who celebrate are poor blind sheep being led to the slaughter. And you specialness has given you that unique perspective that no one else has been blessed with. I get it. Please stop rubbing it in. It's hurtful .
HIM: To say special implies there's a day when its not special. Everyday is special.
ME: Ever day is special is bull crap. Its a cop out. Don't use it again unless you intend to make it so.
HIM: It is so
ME: Let's please shut the matter and never talk aboiut it again
HIM: You brought it up on your blog. January 20th. That's what makes me think something is up in terms of expectations.
ME: I made it very clear, I thought, that we didn't celebrate Valentines because you hate it. That entire post was dedicated to the fact that we WON'T be celebrating it.
HIM: But that's not the reason. It's not about me hating it or not.
ME: What's it about?
HIM: We don't celebrate it for the same reason we don't celebrate Hanukah. No reason to emphasize something that is at maximum emphasis every day of the year. That is the point.
ME: Really? Let's think about this. I have been suffering from lack of romantic attention for a long time. But this is a PERFECT excuse to make me feel special... a great day set aside to celebrate romance. But instead of honoring my feelings on it (thereby making me feel loved) you choose to boycott because it is already at it's "maximum emphasis." Your logic is skewed and flawed.
HIM: Disagree we have luniversaries ( side note, a lunarversary is our once monthy date night. ) and anniversaries that are continuous throughout the year. We have us all the time. The logic is solid. I'm not saying I have been the romantic expert at all times or anything , obviously I haven't... trying to work on that. But...even through the weak times...its been at maximum.
ME: Well since we're talking about MY feelings on the subject I think I can confidantly say that my love bank is NOT filled. But apparently that doesn't matter. I dont want to talk about this anymore. How many times do I have to say to let it drop? Youre just hurting me more and I'm begining to think that maybe you're just trying to pick a fight.
HIM: Trying to avoid any confrontation by dealing with it directly ahead of time.
ME: There wouldn't have been any if you had just let it lie. We don't celebrate V Day because you hate it. I get it. You can paint it however you want to. But that's the way it is.
HIM: Which is , of course, not why we don't celebrate it.
ME: Let's please drop it.
HIM: Ok..dropped
EDIT:
Let me also add that for the past two days (and other various times) he's checked his email in the mornings (a no-no since his prime porn time is in the morning while checking email). AND the other night he got onto the DEX website to request that they not send us telephone books anymore. He was trying to do so via live chat and ended up talking to this girl about random crap which ended up with her wanting his FACEBOOK ID SO THEY CAN BE FRIENDS (which he denied, thank GOD). I WASN'T home at the time so we, YET AGAIN, broke the "no internet alone time" rule. He cares NILCH about my feelings. The next time he tries to hand me a line of crap like "Every day is special" and "I want you to feel loved" I swear I'm going to throw something. I'm not an effing IDIOT.
Amos cares about what makes AMOS happy. Screw Esther. Maybe we'll get lucky and Esther won't find out.
I'm going to go cry now.
... How is he not getting this? Drummer does the same damned thing (I'm very hurt by him right now, please excuse language). Do they need it in stpid terms?
ReplyDeleteHEY! HUSBANDS: Wife=Celebrate V-Day so she feels special and loved. It's not hard to write a stupid love poem, buy some crummy flowers and after the kids are in bed drink some champagne. Maybe do a chore or two WITHOUT being asked or expecting to be thanked.
WHY DO YOU HAVE TO DO THIS? Because it's like interest in the bank, the more nice and kind things you do (such as celebrate V-Day even though you hate it) the more you get back. More trust, more love, more positive thoughts, actions and emotions from the woman yo are romancing. Dating didn't end the day you slipped the ring on our finger, it intensified.
Why are you alright with her having no expectations for you and already assuming her day is going to suck/be average? Why do you want the kind of reputation to be tagged to your marriage? Is that the kind of memory you want her to have from you? Step up, Man. Christ DIED for his "Wife", you can't even buy some damn chocolates?!
Ah... hope your man reads comments..?
LOL Yes Peach, I'm sure he'll see that eventually. Favorite line is this "Christ DIED for his "Wife", you can't even buy some damn chocolates?!"
ReplyDeleteLIKE.
On a side note, my SIL just made me feel about 1000 times better. She showed up at my house with a bouquest of blue/purple daisys. She told me I wasn't crazy or a sheep for wanting what a want. She's a pretty alright girl my SIL.
Oooh.....psych major was engaged. ;) Have you ever read the book on the five love languages? I would recommend it. Also, I think I've recommended it before, but Relationships by Les and Leslie Parrott is amazing and has some chapters on communication.
ReplyDeleteBased solely on the conversation, I would say that Amos was making an honest (yet, man) attempt. I don't think he was being mean spirited at all in starting the discussion the way he did.
Had I only read the first line or two of Amos', I would have thought it to be very sweet. However, his motive was not pure either. He wasn't telling you that he loved you because he simply loves you; he was telling you because he wanted to avoid confrontation, thus bringing out confrontation.
However, as a tip to you, Esther, you immediately got defensive and showed your hurt. I'm sure that you have had a similar arguement hundreds of times before, so I totally understand where you are coming from. It's similar to conversations that my husband and I have about who chooses dinner and a movie (I'll give you a guess, usually not me...unless he agrees and it fits what he wants)...
However, you repeatedly used terms that he was straight out against. The conversation may have gone differently if you continuously reworded what you were saying until he understood it in his way. We often get stuck in certain phrases and sentances and don't realize how it's just not going through. Like putting a square block through a circle hole.
It's not saying that men are stupid or just don't understand, but they have a totally different way of communicating, and to make it best work, there needs to 1) be a mutual understanding of that differene and 2) be an honest effort to communicate in the way that the opposite sex, especially our spouse, comprehends. The book, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus explains this, but I really didn't enjoy the book much.
I commend you for trying to end the conversation and cool off, but think that until you guys reach a happy medium, this will be a constant area of tension...
Could you both agree to have one of your monthly date nights on Valentines day, just for February? And that, to not pay into the commercialism, each year you guys will do something special, like make a card or write a letter (that all can be stored in a scrapbook or something) just to make it stand out a little extra. Just a little extra to make you feel loved and special, but not so much that he feels uncomfortable? Just some thoughts...I'd love to brainstorm more if you'd like.
*hugs*
I know how hard it can be with a nonromantic hubby. Mine is like a mountain...
I thought you'd be interested in this Carla. I'm sure there's things you're right about... As far as me picking our termonology he doesn't like... you're spot on. I was very deliberatly using the sentance "We don't celebrate Valentine's because you hate it." And here's why... I HATE that he was trying to wrigle out of that. I'm calling him on his bull crap here. He says he doesn't celebrate it because every day should be special, but he makes no effort to makes days special. Even though I've told him I long for them and cry for them. When he starts acting like each day is special, THEN we can use that excuse. Until then, we don't celebrate V Day because he hates it. If it looks like duck. Walks like a duck. Quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
ReplyDeleteThis conversation wasn't so much about getting through to him. He's not an idiot. He knows what I want/need. He just refuses to do anything about it. So when he brings up a conversation like this JUST TO REMIND ME THAT NOTHING IS HAPPENING ON VALENTINE'S DAY... I get pissed. Way pissed. Especially when he starts out with little "I Love You's" How sad is it that as soon as he said that first sentance , I was suspecious? He never starts conversations like that unless he has a motive. So I knew something was coming. If you want to make sure I know that nothing's coming then just tell me "Esther, I want to make sure you're not dissappointed on Monday and I want you to know that my thoughts on Valentines Day haven't changed." Great. THAT I can deal with. But DON'T piss down my back and tell me it's raining. I'm sure I could have reacted better, but I can only be fed a line of complete cop-out BS so much before I explode and one more line... and I'll explode. Our monthly date nights are tradionally held on the day we were married (the 29th). Even if he were willing to go out that night (which he wouldn't be because he hates the crowds) he whine about it the entire time. I know some of you guys think I'm exaggerating... but I'm not. At this point, the last person I want to be with on Valentines Day is Amos. I am furious with him. I told him multiple times that I didn't want to talk about it... that it was HURTING me but he'd rather put in his two cents worth and rub salt in the wounds. The F'd up thing is that I seriously had NO expectations. I really truely didn't. It was completely unnecessary and ugly to go out of his way to drive the point home. And I don't care if he was trying to be hurtful or not. The first time I tell you that you're hurting me and ask you to stop... YOU STOP.
Ahhhhh I could go on for another hour. Sorry Carla. End Rant.
I am on the completely opposite spectrum from you. I can NOT stand valentines day. I'm totally not taking Amos' side, but I don't see the importance of a national day to share your love with someone. However, with that being said, and without "bragging" Shane spoils me rotten every day of the week. I don't need him to do anything special for me just on that day. If he missed our anniversary or my birthday though, I would be angry....valentines day doesn't mean much to me...
ReplyDeleteWith that being said, I don't see why it would hurt him to get a mushy card from Walgreens and one of your favorite candy bars. If I knew that Shane really wanted even something tiny for Valentines day, I would set aside my dislike for the "holiday" and go get him something. Sometimes we just need to put aside our dislikes and serve our spouse...
Hey, I started with the phrase, "Based solely on the conversation..." That meant that I came at it from a psych mindset, focusing only on the dialogue put forth.
ReplyDeleteAs a woman who has been scorned, I feel ya. I don't expect anything however. We are doing a date night tomorrow to "celebrate" Valentine's Day. And, I just wanted to come tell you that because of your post about the day, and with my lack of ambition to show love to my hubs..I made an effort with the kids to make something special for Jose...so we cut out a bunch of hearts out of paper, colored all over them and stapled them to a string. Then we strung them across the dining room and the living room. Yay! Ghetto, but yay! (I'll try to post a blog soon so you can see 'em and know that you inspired us!)
So, do you think that Valentine's day will ever change with you and Amos?
If you lived close, I'd totally hang with you on V-day!
I found you through Jill's blog. This whole thing really hurts my heart for you. You deserve to be treated like a woman of God. Like the precious treasure that you are. I've prayed very hard about what I want to say because I don't want to hurt your feelings in any way and I firmly believe in the sanctity of marriage. However, Amos does not sound like the kind of man who treasures his wife the way you deserve. He does not sound like he's scared in the least of losing you. If he was, he'd put aside his pride and stubbornness and show a kindhearted, loving gesture towards you on Valentine's day simply because it's important to you. You may not celebrate Hannukah but if it held some value to Amos, I'm sure you'd find a way to commemorate that. And even if he "Loves you every day", if he truly made you feel loved to the max every day, Valentine's day wouldn't matter so much to you. Do you think he'd want his own daughter's husband to treat her like he treats you? From what I've read about his side of the family, he doesn't have much to look up to in re: to role models for being a good husband. This is from the outside looking in, mind you. I don't see the two of you interact and I don't see both sides of the story. However, your feelings are VALID and if the blog truly expresses your feelings then there is a problem and Amos needs to work hard to find a way to make you feel loved, valued and appreciated.
ReplyDeleteThanks Carla! I didn't mean to sound grumpy at you, obviously your not the one stepping on my toes. It was the heat of the moment and I lacked the energy or maturity it would have taken to hold back. So I spewed off whatever was in my little head. I do that too often I think. I think I should have been born a red head like you Jill ;)
ReplyDeleteMcEngland-- Thanks for your comment. It was very gentle and obviously given with a gentle heart. Thank you.
That's basically where I stand. I honestly don't care if a single dime was spend but would it kill you to write a love note or at the very least accept valentine's gifts without complaining?
One of the biggest problems we're having right now is regarding romance. The lack of it. He'll readily admit that he doesn't fill that need in me but danged if I see any improvement. I try hard to fill his sexual needs but I don't feel like he's putting in the same, or half of, the effort that I'm putting in. As far as V Day goes, I knew that this was going to be the same as every other year. I knew there were no surprises or sweetness set aside for that day. I knew not to expect anything. The whole "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" senario comes to mind. I haven't expected any fun stuff since after our second valentine's day. But to have it rubbed in and just not dropped... that just sorta hurt. We've agreed not to talk about it anymore. Which makes me happy oddly enough.
Oh well. I think I've said everything I can possibly, reasonably, say on this topic.
Thank you for telling me my view is valid. It's nice not to feel like a whiny girl.
I'd really like to hit Amos with a "clue by four"!! A valentine's gesture doesn't have to be any bigger than a simple note. A piece of paper...a pen...and some real sentiment. No buying into the Hallmark holiday...but fulfilling his wife's desire to feel loved. How hard can it be? Esther, you deserve to feel like a queen on Valentine's Day...and everyday!! Amos needs to put your feelings first, for once!
ReplyDeleteKirsty -- It has been suggested to me that perhaps when men don't believe in silly romantic holidays, women should only believe in sex for reproduction. Interesting theory ;o)
ReplyDeleteNew follower...I'm going to read more of your posts and then comment a bit.
ReplyDeleteCheck out my blog if you get a chance. I'm pretty honest...dealt with a lot...not sure where you are in your relationship...not judging...but been through some pretty rough and not great times in my past and it's always nice to have support who understands.
Esther, that is, indeed, a pretty interesting theory. Wonder how it would work for Amos?
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about your situation on and off and I just don't understand how he can't put his feelings aside for just one moment and give you what you crave....even if he doesn't believe in the "stupid" holiday. Doesn't he see any need to fulfill some of your needs?
Thanks for stopping by KT... I'm going to address all of your past comments here if I may since I'm lazy ;o)
ReplyDeleteForgive me in saying so, but I think you might be too close to your situation to see mine clearly. I could be wrong, but it seems as though your emotions/expirence with your ex has tainted your view of Amos. It's certainly fair to say we have some work to do but I think you see some of Amos' actions that mimic your ex's and your judgement ends up being a bit skewed. Again, I could be wrong.
I read your blog top to bottom this morning and I'm still a bit mystified as to what exactly happened in your marriage but there are two important things that stand out. The first one being that your ex would spend (what I infere to be) alot of money on weed. Now I DON'T want to start a debate on weed and wether it's a gateway drug or all that junk, but I will say this weed effects your ability to think clearly, if he spent as much time as I suspect he did high on the stuff, then his actions may not be what they normally would have been (I'm not excusing whatever he did, I'm just pointing out that this effects his decision making skills). Amos is a big believer in not putting major mood/mind altering things into his body. No alcohol, no pain killers, no weed... he does drink an ungodly amount of caffiene though.
The second , and most important difference, is God. Amos is a Christian. He beleives in God, in Christ, and in the trinity. He has gone crying to God on many occasions and if a perfect and sinless God can take Amos back, then who am I to deny forgiveness?
Now this is not a get out of jail free card for Amos, although I'm sure it sounds like it is. If Amos stops fighting his demons or becomes lax, I won't stay. I do agree with you that it is better for my children to be raised in a stable home, however it is also good for them to be shown the grace of God. Also keep in mind that this blog is my venting place. This is where I go when my head is on the verge of exploding. Where I let off steam. You probably won't hear about how I curled up in his lap for a couple of hours last night and let him play with my hair. Or how hard he works at providing a stable home for us. Or how he is with our kids. He is magic with them. He cleans with me, he changes as many diapers as I do, gives as many (if not more) baths as I do, he hugs and kisses and plays and romps... he is soooo good.
Ah.. I'm rambling. Forgive me. I'm sick. I have a head cold and it has pretty much destroyed my ability to think in a rational manner.
The next post I make will be for you. And for Amos.